LISA FRANCELLA: At Pepsi, it is not only understanding brand identity, but also what is happening in the global marketplace and what the business proposition is. It's been a great learning experience and a great education. Our core work is reestablishing brand identities. I find it very challenging to do what I do. It's getting harder instead of easier, which is great because it is still stimulating. Working at a company like Pepsi, where the marketing people are some of the best, raises the bar. If you're up for the challenge, you succeed. The key thing for me has been passion. I love what I do, and I love the people I work with. They're the ones that really make my group as good as it is, and in turn, produce brands that are as strong as they are. They could put somebody in here that doesn't have a design background, who didn't actually design logos and trademarks, and be fine, but I think it'd be a different dynamic.

PAMELA DECESARE: I worked in design consultancies my whole life, until seven years ago, when I started at Kraft. I was hired as the associate director of packaging, and became a director two years ago. In terms of responsibilities, my job then was similar to what it is today, except I don't think the organization ever thought we would approach design in the integrated way we do now. When I first started working here, there was less strategic collaboration with marketing, and in many instances assignments were just executed. Now, my group (which manages design for all the Kraft New York businesses) partners with marketing, consumer insights, strategies and with promotions to develop strategic plans and create design protocols to support business objectives.

CHERYL SWANSON: And Pam re-envisioned the entire process, so now they're working in integrated marketing teams, where design is brought in right away. She did it in two years. It is remarkable.

BARBARA EDEN: Most of my career has been on the marketing side, but my creative background has always given me a tremendous edge, because it's made me more unconventional. I don't have an MBA. I always try to approach marketing uniquely — leveraging my art background. I have worked in consumer packaging companies, managing packaging, consumer promotion, public relations and point of sale material. Now I'm at Pepperidge Farm, leading the marketing services department. Our team's core responsibilities include managing brand identity and our great equity. We lead the design process, working closely with brand and market research counterparts to create packaging that supports the business objectives and builds the Pepperidge Farm brand.

GDUSA: WHEN YOU STARTED IN THIS BUSINESS, WHAT WAS YOUR SALARY?

CS: $4.00 an hour
PAMELA PARISI: Mine was $8,500 a year.
LF: Mine was $22,000.
DEBBIE MILLMAN: I started at $6.00 an hour as a freelancer, then I was promoted to a full-time position making $16,000 a year.
PD: That was a lot.
DM: That was in 1983!
BE: $17,000. It was more than all of my friends, at the time.

GDUSA: WHY ARE THERE SO FEW SENIOR WOMEN IN BRAND IDENTITY?

DM: I would bet that in this country, you couldn't find another ten women that do what Pam, Pamela, Barbara and Lisa do. And if this article had been written four years ago, only half of us would be here. In 1998, a man led packaging at Kraft, and a man was the design director at Pepperidge Farm. I have been in the brand identity business for over 10 years, and when I started, it struck me as very odd that there were so few women in this business. There seems to be a steady but very slow increase in terms of how many women are corporate design directors running a department. What is interesting in terms of the ownership of brand design firms is it's still primarily men, but what's happened now is you've lost the namesakes. The sad thing about The Schechter Group merging with Interbrand is that you lost the legacy and the heritage of what these men did in that business, which was really to create the idea of "brand." Walter Landor really created the business, but then you had the people like Dick Gerstman and Herb Myers, Alvin Schechter, Owen Coleman, Primo Angeli and Stanley Church, that really changed the business and made it into this wonderful art form. Now most of their names have disappeared. What I now see happening is that the women in these organizations, certainly in the corporate organizations, have started to take over in the most senior positions. They are now the people making the decisions. They have the most influence in choosing a design firm to work with. There seems to be a much stronger female orientation, but I still think it's quite dramatically different from what you see in the world of design as a whole, where it's at least 50% female, if not more. Brand identity is about 20% if we're lucky.

PP: When I went to art school, it was mostly women. There were only a few men that majored in design of any type. Then, when I went into business, it was always men. My partners were men. There were a handful of women that worked in design, but every one of my clients were men. Every client I took out to lunch was a man. When I started working with Gillette, it was mostly men. DM: Pamela was the first female corporate design director in the country.

PP: Now, women can have an advantage. The marketing people at Gillette are over 50% female and they are smart. They are challenging. Again, it's a male oriented company, so they don't reach the top that easily. It is because of the number of marketing women I deal with that I'm not the odd man out. I think we're all designers at this table, but we're also business people. I understand marketing probably better than some of the marketing people, and I have to keep reminding them what it is we're trying to accomplish with any type of design. I think that to be a good corporate design director, you have to understand marketing and apply it to every step of the design process. My marketing people love dealing with Cheryl. She speaks their language. They have a huge amount of respect for her.

CS: That's a key word, respect. Women have to earn respect.

BE: Men start out with it.

GDUSA: WHY DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SO FEW WOMEN IN BRAND IDENTITY COMPARED WITH THE REST OF DESIGN?

LF: At Pepsi, there are a lot of women in senior management. Dawn Hudson is the president at Pepsi, and Indra Nooyi is president and cfo, PepsiCo. Overall, the company has made a conscious effort to advance women into senior positions. I can't say the same for any other company that I have worked for in the past. With those employers, it seemed like women were already doing the work before you actually got the title and job. Even if they didn't have the skill, it seemed like the men were given the opportunity to get up to speed.

CS: If you analyze human history, the public sphere has traditionally been male and the private sphere has been female. It is just in the last thirty years or so (in this country) that women have entered the public sphere in a big way. We're smart enough to be here and, economically, we want and need to be here. I see waves every five years that the workplace is getting less gender-based. I started my career with a very, very strong woman in the 80s — Faith Popcorn — when it was not cool to be that strong, eccentric or innovative. And I learned a lot from her. But I do remember she had to play some of the guy games, and the guy games were a lot more intense in the 80s.

PP: When I started at Gillette, I dressed somewhat conservatively. I noticed that if you dressed like a "designer," the marketing people looked at your clothes first and then decided if what you were saying had validity. I found that if you looked like them, they didn't focus first on what you looked like, and they listened to what you said. Once you established that you knew what you were talking about, then you could dress more uniquely. I still advise women in corporations to do that. Let me tell you, I've been through this! I do think we have a disadvantage. When you're in the business world and you're fifty-something years old, the assumption is you are working because you have nothing else to do. You're here now because you raised kids, you're bored and you've gone back to work. For a man, it is assumed that he's been working continuously since college and he has a career. So if you are a woman and you are married, conclusions are drawn that always bring you down.

GDUSA: WHY WERE THE ORIGINAL PACKAGE DESIGN INNOVATORS ALL MEN?

BE: They started all of the design firms.

DM: But plenty of women have started their own design firms in the overall design business, not specifically oriented to brand design. Look at Cheryl Heller. She started Heller Breene twenty years ago. And Paula Scher, she has been at Pentagram a long time. And there's Nancye Green, and of course there was Mary Wells. But they weren't in package design, per se.

CS: The reason is that women didn't really start to come into the work force in a big way until the Ronald Reagan years, when women stopped going into teaching. Package design innovation started way before that.

PD: Now there is a president of Kraft who is a woman.

PP: There are a very few vice presidents at Gillette who are women.

BE: Kraft was on the forefront. I think Kraft was smart to have women in senior management positions representing their actual consumer base. One of the things that has been an advantage to me in my career is that I am a savvy consumer. I come at marketing from that perspective, and that's one thing that I don't think men do as well as women. My mom taught me to be a great shopper. My job as a kid was to look at packaging, to cut coupons out of all the magazines, and pick out the products in the store. That background has given me an edge in consumer branding. And guys were not brought up that way. Up until the 90s, the way to grow business was through pricing. But now companies are really looking for new ways to grow their business, as pricing presents a significant risk in today's marketplace. This is a tremendous opportunity for women, because we have a unique understanding of the consumer base, especially in the packaged goods arena. So we're going to start seeing a lot more women moving up in brand image and brand design positions, because we intrinsically understand consumer needs.

CS: I was always the only woman at practically every job I have ever had. I'm a strong personality. I have a very clear perspective of myself and what my capabilities are. Yet I've found that I still have to be better than my male counterparts.

PP: I think women always have to be 150% better than men in the management and execution of design, but not be overt about it. I think we have to come about our recommendations and our perspective in a different way than a man would.

PD: I never felt that way, ever in my life, regarding anything. I just never did. I always knew I was different and I could use it to my advantage.

DM: I feel a little bit like all of you. I've taken advantage and have enjoyed the fact that I'm a woman in a man's world. But it is definitely a man's world. I also feel that I would not get away with anywhere near what my male counterparts in various jobs have been able to get away with. I've always had to work harder to prove myself.

LF: If I encounter a male colleague that's unsure of me, he's usually been threatened. He doesn't know what to make of me. To me it became, "How am I going to get around that?"

DM: Do you feel that is a gender issue or a personality issue?

LF: I think it's a little bit of both.

CS: If it were two men, how awkward would it be or how reasonable would it seem for one to be uncomfortable because one felt threatened by the other? I think gender plays a part in this.

LF: I think so. I don't know. To me it's, "Here's your plan, here's my point of view."

PD: I've never felt uncomfortable! I've never really had trouble with it. Maybe I did, and I just didn't notice it. (laughs)

DM: I believe that the female perspective is critical to a balanced and holistic business perspective, whether it is for brand design or any type of design.

GDUSA: HOW WOULD YOU SAY DESIGN IS REVERED IN YOUR ORGANIZATIONS?

LF: I think design is highly revered, and I think senior management is really in tune with design. Very much so. Very concerned about it. They're aware of how important it is. I'll get a phone call from Dawn Hudson, our president, once a week in regard to what they're thinking, what their opinion is or what their input is. Or what my opinion is. It is very, very important to Pepsi. It's our whole image.

PP: I think in my company it is mixed. There are some people in the company that honestly feel packaging does not matter. A manufacturing person once said that he thought we could put a new product in a brown paper bag and it would sell just the same. He honestly believed this. It was said quite a few years ago, when they launched SensorExcel for Men. Many people believe you get a marketing person to write a design brief, send it to a design firm, and in will come a design that can just go to market. Obviously I have not done a very good promotional job internally on the value internal design management or packaging provides! It's interesting, though, because they really do depend on me. They respect what I say, but I don't think they totally respect what design does for them. Recently, a strategic survey was done, and one of the things they were told is that Gillette's packaging is one of their strongest assets. The brands and the packaging. Our brand name is one of the most valuable brand names in the world. I am glad that our packaging reflects that.

GDUSA: GIVEN WHAT YOU HAVE ACHIEVED, IS IT POSSIBLE TO 'HAVE IT ALL'?

LF: I think that we can have it all, but I think we're going to second guess one thing or another, depending on what you are focusing on. I constantly question myself: "Am I doing the best that I can do in any particular area?" That is because of the type of people we are. If you are doing more than one thing, you are always going to question both things. It is going to be a give-and-take, just like anything else when you're trying to juggle two things at one time. For me, I think I was the last shot before the design department became defunct. Obviously, you could outsource my function. So I think I made them value the group. I just proved it. I said, you need us and here's why. I had nowhere else to go but up. I stick with it because I really enjoy it. I'm at the point now that I enjoy it, I am totally involved in it, but I can also do other things because I feel a lot more confident and secure. That's helped me in the last couple of years to know I could still do a good job and not always be there, which is something I had a hard time convincing myself was true. You always had to be there. And it is okay that you're not, if you have a good team.

PP: I depend a lot on my staff. I work with people that I feel confident are going to make sound decisions. As you feel more confident in your team, you can do more.

PD: I don't think about any of these things, about how I got where I am and whether or not I can have it all. I am more in the moment. I go in. I do what I love. I work with great people and I do what I love well, and I take one day at a time. I just do what comes naturally and I always keep true to my personal vision.

GDUSA: WHAT KEEPS YOU IN YOUR ORGANIZATIONS?

PD: What keeps me there is keeping my work in perspective, and knowing I could walk away and do something else tomorrow and be just as happy. I do not put every part of who I am into doing this; it is part of who I am, but not all of who I am. I love what I do, and I learn every day. I have fun with it. I really wanted to build a business career using my creative abilities and I always have. I think I add value every day and I do have it all. In many ways, I have a lot more than I possibly could ever want.

BE: I have a lot going on in my life. But I have a tremendous capacity, and that is what keeps me going. Every day can be something more. I don't know where it's going, but I love it. I love Pepperidge. I love the people that I work with. And I've had a very fulfilling career. I've made very clear decisions about which companies I'd work for and what assignments I'd take on. I still try to take on as much as possible. I want to continue to grow and learn.

PP: What I've heard through this whole conversation is that people believe in their companies and what they do, and that they have good ethics. That's very important. I work for a company that's very ethical. In this day and age, it's critical. I think that everybody here enjoys what they're doing. They feel that they contribute, and they feel they're challenged and are learning. I've always felt that as soon as I think I've just about got this job down pat, somebody creates a new challenge or something new, and I have to create a whole new way of doing business. Just when you think you've got it down, everything changes! But every change has been interesting, and I really feel I'm adding value to the process because of the creativity I try to bring to everything. I feel like I've contributed and I've been a key person, and that is huge.

DM (to Pamela Parisi): You reinvented the possibilities for women in this business. You were first. And your reinvented the dynamic you inherited.

PD: I had a vision. I went to Kraft because I came from the consultant side, and knew that there had to be a better way for design firms and corporations to work together. And I knew how difficult it could be on the design firm side and how much further you could go if only corporations would work smarter, if only they had the right people involved, if only they valued what we do or understood what we do. You know the frustrations. I thought if I could work on the corporate side, I could somehow change it. I've always wanted to make the partnerships between design firms and corporations better, and the relationships between marketing and the in-house design teams better. I am obsessed with having alignment on a brand, having a vision for a brand, and creating brand image. That is why I go to work.

WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE A YOUNG WOMAN ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO WORK IN TODAY'S DESIGN WORLD?

BE: Do it because you love it and not for the money. That is the kiss of death.

LF: I would say, be true to yourself. It is easy to want something that other people want and do things because you think you should. I think that's a bad path to be on.

PP: I agree with Barbara. Do it because you love it. You will be much better at what you do if you enjoy it. I leave the office at night, and sometimes it is much too late. I love being home, I enjoy everything I do outside of work, and I think I don't have enough time to do what I want. Then I get to the office and I think that I should leave at a reasonable time because I must do something, and yet I really want to stay and accomplish more. I want to be both places at the same time! I guess I'm lucky to be very happy in both parts of my life.

PD: It's easy in the corporate environment to lose sight of outside influences. I try to encourage people to go to the theater and go see that museum exhibit, to be in touch with the world, with people. That's where you get the inspiration to do great work. We have a tendency, because we have such intense workloads and so few resources, not to see outside ourselves. But that is how you get stale. Never lose your outside influences and your interest in people. Those will keep you around for a long time.

GDUSA: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE CURRENT STATE OF BRAND IDENTITY?

PD: I think "branding" is the latest "it" thing. When a vast number of the population can tell you Martha Stewart is a "brand" (regardless of her recent fall from grace), we're simultaneously in a good and a bad place, an exciting and scary place. For most, knowing what "branding" is falls into the realm of "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing." If people are aware of "branding," does that awareness really mean anything positive? Branding has become recognized by most people as a deliberate, strategic concept. But it is not understood as a discipline. It doesn't garner greater respect, and it doesn't mean that processes to create brands have been positively impacted by awareness. On the upside, I do feel that we have made some inroads over the last several years to elevate packaging/branding as a discipline. What has propelled this positive change, no matter the scope, is our ability to wed strategy and design as interrelated, mutually inclusive practices. As we become more business savvy, integrate consumers into our world and develop and market brands in the integrated manner they require, we change the paradigm for the positive. When we speak about a consumer insight, a strategic hypothesis and how we will effectively communicate it, and build a brand on creating a relevant point of difference instead of speaking about color, line and composition, we prove and elevate what we do and how we do it. Then we have great branding. And one day the people who will tell you Martha Stewart is a brand will finally understand why.

CS: Ten years ago, brand identity was considered decorative, not strategic, and it was called packaging! The design piece was relegated to the "end" of the process, and design teams were not included in the process until it was their turn at bat. Siloed off into the "pink ghetto" called design. It was very frustrating. But the good news is that brand identity has become recognized as a powerful strategic tool. In my opinion, brand identity has evolved to become a potent strategic tool in the marketing arsenal, and is now perceived as such. It is now given the respect and stature it deserves. Why, you may ask? Because we've all worked hard to ensure that happens. Ad agencies are losing some of the clout they were accustomed to (their fees are too high and brand identity firms are often more nimble at creating/restaging a brand), and the process of brand creation has become less siloed and more integrated.

LF: In my world, brand identity is very much alive and well. Due to the proliferation of brands and products in the marketplace, no company can afford to take their focus off of building strong brands and identities. Everyone is looking for the next Nike Swoosh or Pepsi Globe, a strong logo or icon that will be as meaningful and as powerful off-pack as it is on-pack. One that is unique and ownable, and clearly states who you are and what you stand for. One that consumers will remember and embrace within their lifestyles. Consistently used brand identification, on packaging and on all other media, is critical in sustaining a brand's personality and consumer recognition.